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Welcome to Episode 406 of The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast. I'm Jack Shitama. If you're new to this podcast, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com with your questions, comments, and suggestions for future episodes.

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And you can get more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com where you can find out about my coaching practice, the books that I've written, the courses that I offer and my speaking engagements. You can also subscribe to my Two for Tuesday email newsletter and get your free AI family systems coach at the website or at the links in the show notes. And finally, if you would like to support my work for as little as $5 a month, you can get more information and sign up at the link in the show notes. Thanks in advance for your consideration. And now without further ado, here is episode 406, a rebroadcast of 4 ways to be a better parent and leader.

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I want to give a shout out to the idea for today's episode. It came from an article by advice columnist Carolyn Hax, who was responding to a reader question that was given to me by Dave Mullen, who is a member of the Non-Anxious Leader Network leadership team. So thanks, Dave, for this article. It really helps illustrate some important family systems principles, both for parents and leaders. The title of this particular column by Carolyn Hacks is What Makes Parents So Annoying, Even to Their Middle-Aged Children? And I'm going to read the letter from the reader verbatim. It reads, Hi Carolyn, my sister and I recently pondered whether all kids think their moms are annoying. Of course, there are few universal truths, but we both find ourselves highly annoyed by our mother most of the time. Anecdotally, my husband finds his mother annoying perhaps 35 to 40% of the time. My sister's teenagers find her annoying most of the time, but they are teens, so who knows how that will play out. Is this destiny? What makes parents so annoying? Even to their middle-aged children. Criticism and unsolicited advice? Pointing out every store and sign you pass as you drive down the road?

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Ignoring cues and asking highly personal questions when no one is in the mood for sharing? Swallowing weird? My kid is only 3 and I need some hope I can break the cycle. And the letter is signed, Annoyed by Mom. I want to start by pointing out that this is process, not content. In this case, it's mom, but it could easily be dad. To some extent, this is the nature of the parent-child relationship. I certainly resonate with this letter. My wife and I raised 4 children. The oldest is 40, the youngest is 32, and I'm sure they still find us annoying, though we try to let them be adults. We try to help them with their grandkids without telling them how to raise their own kids. But I'm sure that there are times when they are annoyed by us. And you might recall that just 4 episodes ago, I recorded an episode about how my mom annoys me. Hacks responds to the reader by saying the things that were mentioned are definitely annoying to kids. 2 are about emotional process: giving criticism and unsolicited advice, Nobody likes to be told what to do. And ignoring cues and asking highly personal questions, which shrinks healthy emotional space.

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The other 2 are simply a function of the parent-child position: pointing out every store and sign as you pass and swallowing weird. And it's important to remember that a leader is like a parent in the congregational or work system. Even though you might think your role is to tell people what to do, it's really to inspire them even as you give them the freedom to not follow. The same is true for parenting, or as Edwin Friedman quips in A Failure of Nerve, this applies to parents and presidents. So what is a parent or president supposed to do when they find that their child or someone they lead is annoyed by them? Hacks offers 4 suggestions that I think are very helpful, especially when understood in family systems terms. The first is to take every age-appropriate opportunity to back off and let the kids be themselves. The age-appropriate part is important. You can't let kids get hurt, but sometimes as a parent, you can go overboard. Hacks points out that there's nothing more annoying than being parented against one's will. She says this sends a message that you know better, The child needs fixing, and who they are matters less to you than who you think they should be.

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In family systems terms, the idea here is to create healthy emotional space, to know where you end and where your child begins. This is about taking responsibility for yourself and, in an appropriate way, letting your child take responsibility for themselves. I can think of times when my kids didn't want to wear a jacket to school, and I don't even remember what I did, but I probably force them to wear one. But if I were doing it now, I would let them go without one and let them deal with the consequences of not having a jacket at the bus stop or during recess. Maybe they'd be fine without it, or maybe they'd suffer, but either way, they would be learning to make their own decisions, and they couldn't blame me for that decision. Another family systems concept is you can't make another person responsible. That only comes when people are allowed to make their own decisions and then deal with the consequences. Of course, age-appropriate is important. You're not going to let a 10-year-old drive your car. But I think there are many more times when we think we know better and don't let children figure it out for themselves.

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The same is true for you as a leader. How often do you ask someone to do something, then tell them how they should do it? That's annoying. When I first started as a camp director, I focused on empowering our staff to make decisions and to think about how they could improve how we do things. It started to work, and they would come to me feeling proud to share what they had done on their own. Early on, I would respond by saying, that's great. I wouldn't have done it that way, but I appreciate your effort. I realized pretty quickly that the second part of that response made things worse than if I said nothing at all. It implied that I knew better and they did it wrong, and that I wasn't really interested in their growth as a leader. They never told me so, but I'm guessing that was pretty annoying. Fortunately, I recognized pretty quickly I just needed to say, that's great, and leave it at that. Hacks's second suggestion is to keep your anxiety behaviors to yourself. Good advice. She says when you point out every sign in stores as you drive down the road, it's, quote, the equivalent of announcing to everyone in the car I am massively stressed in your presence right now.

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It is both the chicken and the egg of feeling like everything you say to your kids is the wrong thing. This is all about self-regulation and self-awareness. Instead of chattering on because you are anxious, pause, breathe, and tell yourself not to say a word until you can figure out something helpful to say. Silence is the greatest gift you can give yourself when you are anxious. It will help you self-regulate so you can figure out what is going on inside. That's how you can manage your own anxiety, and that's what self-differentiated people do. Once you have your anxiety in check, you can ask yourself, what would be a healthy way to engage? Sometimes that might mean more silence. It could also be asking a non-probing, non-invasive question such as, what are you excited about today? Or in a leadership situation, What's giving you the most energy right now? Maybe those wouldn't be helpful either, but the point here is to be intentional about how you engage. If you can't think of anything helpful, then deal with your own anxiety and remain quiet and calm. For Hacks' 3rd suggestion on how to be less annoying, she writes, quote, learn not to feel or act hurt that your kids find you annoying.

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It's more positional than personal anyway, so treat it that way toward becoming less reactive. Emotionally reactive people are harder to be around in general. This is not only about self-regulation; it emphasizes that it's about emotional process and not content. No matter what the content, you are likely to annoy your child, and depending on how you say things, you are likely to annoy those you lead. Nobody likes to be told what to do. Reactivity— that is, getting defensive or aggressive when others are annoyed with you— will make others resent you and want to avoid you. That's not what you want, whether you're a parent or a president. One reader of Hacks' column pointed out that when it comes to children, it's their job to differentiate themselves and feel motivated toward independence, which includes pushing parents away. Finding fault is a pretext. Again, finding fault with you as a parent or a leader is emotional process regardless of the content. Learning to regulate your reactivity will help create healthy emotional space so others can grow more mature. As a leader, facilitating more mature, more differentiated members of the team benefits everyone. It will help avoid the 5 dysfunctions of a team that I covered in the last episode.

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In short, it's good for everybody when our kids and those we lead grow up. Finally, Hacks recommends learning to laugh at yourself and admit when you're wrong. She says it's the closest thing we've got to magic. Humor is an antidote to anxiety. It offers perspective that whatever is going on at the moment is not the end of the world. Seriousness, on the other hand, paralyzes and increases anxiety. This doesn't mean you have to be a jokester. It just means that you don't take yourself too seriously. And when it helps you do that, it will help you to manage your own anxiety as well as deal with the anxiety of others in a healthy way. This is also about taking responsibility for self. Being able to admit you are wrong is a superpower. It helps others see you as human. I'll admit that over time I've had to learn to get better at this. I've had no problem being humorous. I've had no problem being light, but learning to admit that I'm wrong has been difficult. I do think I'm better at it than I was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. That's mainly because of doing this kind of work.

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Self-awareness and intentionality help so that we know that when we need to admit we're wrong, we're able to do it in a healthy way. One time at a camp staff meeting, I was really excited about an idea for a new summer camp program. I shared my idea and all my excitement, and then we went around the table and one by one people shared why they thought it was a bad idea. Everybody chimed in except one of our senior staff members, and I looked over at him and said, You haven't said anything. He smiled and said, there's no need to. We all had a good laugh, and I realized I just need to forget about my exciting idea. That doesn't mean that there haven't been times when I have stuck to my guns, but in this case, it was important to admit I was wrong. And in this case, it was helpful that the senior staff member injected a little humor. Whether you are a parent or president, learning to take responsibility for self while giving others the freedom to do the same, whether they are children or people you lead, will help you to be a non-anxious presence, and it will help you to be less annoying. I'm guessing that's something that all of us want. That's it for episode 406.