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Welcome to Episode 388 of The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast. I'm Jack Shitama. I am continuing my interview with family practitioner and author Margaret Markison. If you haven't listened to the first part of this interview, please do that first as her bio is in there and it will give you context for the rest of our conversation. There is going to be some overlap. I'm going to backtrack a little bit just so that leads into the discussion that we are having today. And if you are new to this podcast, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com with your questions, comments, and suggestions for future episodes. And you can get more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com where you can find out about the books that I've written, my coaching practice, speaking engagements, and the courses that I offer. You can also subscribe to my Two for Tuesday email newsletter and get your free AI family systems coach at the website or at the links in the show notes.

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And finally, if you would like to support my work for as little as $5 a month, you can get more information and sign up at the link in the show notes. And if you support my work as a patron, you will get access to the full length YouTube interview. Thank you. With Margaret Markison. And now, without further ado, here is episode 388, an interview with Margaret Marcuson, part 2 of 4.

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Yeah, it was interesting. One of the videos of Bowen that I watched was him working with a family that had a schizophrenic daughter. And It was a group of, maybe there were 6 around the table, and he was working with the oldest daughter who he thought had the most potential. But at one point, the identified patient, the daughter, started just talking gobbledygook. And he said to her, "You can do better than that." And she started making more sense instantly.

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Wow.

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I have never forgotten that about the power of challenge for people at any level.

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Yeah, that's incredible. That makes me kind of want to follow two paths here. One is, how would you suggest people learn how to challenge others in a healthy way, in a nice way? What have you learned that can be helpful to people?

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I think there's a lot to be said for defining yourself and saying, here's how I see it. And there was another video with Bowen where he was saying, he said, He suggested not saying you as a way of coming around. This thing needs to change, that kind of approach. And I think this is where, number one, having a coach or a coaching group can be helpful where you bring something and to have someone who can help you think through what's the best way to take a stand here. And over time you can look at your own family story and what it, where are the gifts and the challenges in that bringing clarity to these difficult situations.

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Yeah. Having other, someone else, others to workshop.

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Yeah, I think, I think that's right. And this is not just colleagues who are saying, ain't it awful? There's a lot of that with clergy. It is awful sometimes. And sometimes you need someone to commiserate with, but that's not going to help you get out of the fix you're in.

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Somehow figuring out what functioning differently looks like and then being able to articulate that. The other thing you mentioned about the story about Bowen was he was working with one of the daughters, the oldest daughter, I think you said. And this idea that in a system, you try to work with somebody who's stronger or more differentiated or more motivated. How would you apply that to people who are in leadership and when they're trying to, you know, the system is stuck or it's anxious or it's dysfunctional, how does a leader look for people like that and work with them?

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Well, this is another Friedman line. People can't hear you unless they're moving toward you. So look for the people who are moving towards you, the people whose eyes light up when you start talking about possibilities. You're not chasing after people trying to convince them. Of whatever it is you're trying to convince them of. That rarely works.

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I'm gonna skip around in my list of questions because this is in your new book when you talk about those 3 components of communication. Would you cover those for people? Would you give them a little teaser of your new book?

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Yeah. So let's see if I can, there's 3 of them, see if I can remember them in order. So people can only hear you when they're coming towards you. I think, believe that anxiety is like static in a system. Ah, yeah, that's another one. When anxiety is high, people are gonna find it much more difficult to hear. And I would say right now, anxiety's high all the time. And so you have to expect that once is not enough. And it's gonna take a number of times. And it may take, in some cases, may take a few years. It's like, oh yeah, or somebody else says it. And then you let them take the credit for it.

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Right. You don't need to take credit, right?

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Yeah, yeah. So people can't hear you when they aren't coming towards you. And so this is when you don't chase after people. You may stay connected with them. This is the trick. How do you stay connected without chasing? And it probably is connecting with them around something that's not the issue at hand. You know, it could be pastoral care. It could be asking them something about the history of the church. It could be baseball. It, it, it, it, this is the process as opposed to content.

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Mm-hmm.

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So process is about connecting. It's about the, the navigating that relationship system that you're a part of and looking at the key players, even if they don't agree with you, and staying in touch without chasing.

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Yeah. And then I think that's the part that people have a hard time with sometimes because they kind of get sucked into this with blinders. They— it all is about the issue, whatever the content is that's creating anxiety and resistance and conflict. And they have a hard time saying, oh, I saw you had a grandson who graduated. Tell me about that. Or, you know, when I'm doing that or when I'm working with a coaching client, I'm looking for anything, any kind of thing that I could ask them about. Or any commonality we might have, as you say, to connect without promoting the anxiety. And I think that's, it gets easier over time because you start to look for it more, I think. But it's hard for people, I think, at first.

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Yeah, it is hard. There's another piece that is related to the content is to be curious with people about their perspective instead of just trying to convince them of your own. That's not listening.

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Listening to people and saying, "Well, tell me more about that." Well, and I think that also, that speaks to this idea that when you're really differentiated, you don't need them to agree with you. So listening to them becomes easier when you're not trying to convince them that you're right.

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Yeah, yeah. It is hard though. We all get attached to what we want. I want people to agree with me right along with everybody else.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's intuitive. The natural responses that we have tend to take us in the wrong direction.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think it's biological because survival is about us being together over against the hostile forces out there.

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Yeah, and it worked for many, many years.

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Yeah, it still has its place. Being together is valuable. It's part of being human. And you have to be able to, if you're a leader, you have to be able to step apart from the group or you're not actually leading.

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Say a little bit more about that. When you say step apart from the group, what do you mean by that?

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Well, if you're a pastor, for example, you hold a position that no one else has. You speak to them every week. You, depending on the polity, you might lead different bodies, governing bodies of the church, or be a key player in them. So no one else sees what you see. And to be able to hold that space, to bring your perspective while still saying, that's just how I see it, or this is what I think. I recognize this is your decision. It's your church. But here's my perspective.

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And what I've learned is when the leader doesn't do that, it creates anxiety.

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It does either way. So if the leader never says, here's It's not enough to say, "Where do you wanna go? And I'll take you there." And it's not enough to say, "This is my way, my way or the highway." Right.

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Those are kind of the two opposite ends of that spectrum.

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They are. I think they're both anxiety-driven. There's plenty of anxiety kind of to hold that middle ground. It's not easy to say, "Here's what I think.

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This is important to me, and it's your decision." Yeah, and you say in your new book that the primary role of a leader is to give them the bigger picture. So say a little bit more about that, what that does, and then also how self-differentiation helps with that, how that helps a leader.

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Well, the shorthand for differentiation is— sometimes I just use this 3-part phrase— to get clear, stay connected, and keep calm. There's a lot more to it than that. But it's really you stepping apart enough to say, Here's what I think. Here's how I'm gonna say to them. Here's the pacing that I'm gonna use, 'cause you don't necessarily say everything all at once, especially if you're new. And then you say, who are the key people? So Lovett Weems, I heard him say once, who are the people without whom this will not happen? And you connect with them and you get their perspective. Yeah. And whether they're key allies or opponents, I don't know, or something in between. So you connect with the key players. And then the bonus is to keep calm. Nowadays I'm saying keep calm-ish, where you are able to manage your own anxiety enough to hang in there when people either— they may say, "Best idea you ever had, Pastor," which can be not useful if they're thinking something else or other— you're not hearing from the others who have a different perspective. And so you are differentiated enough to be in relationship with people who disagree and who may disagree strong, that you're not taking that personally and you're seeing this as— systems do not change easily.

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Mm-hmm.

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And there will be reactivity. What do you see? What do you notice? And how do you manage yourself in the face of that without getting defensive?

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But as a premission— $2 million question. In Failure of Nerve, I think he says the keys to the kingdom, right?

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Yes, keys to the kingdom. Yes. And to remember, so you're the leader, you have a unique perspective, but you're not in this alone. You have to have partners and allies, not just people that you cozy up with over against those horrible people over there who just don't get it. But who are able to carry it. You have a unique load, but it's not yours to carry alone. In a congregation, it's a shared responsibility.

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Right. That's where emotional connection comes in, right? It helps.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, it helps.

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You mentioned the people who might say it's a great idea, but don't really agree, which is an issue in itself, right? That's a lack of maturity 'cause they're not able to speak their mind. How do you deal with that if you don't even know that they disagree? What's your experience in pastoral ministry and working with leaders?

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Well, people can sense if you don't want to hear disagreement. So part of the work is being able, is seeking out those who do disagree and communicating by your presence that you're able to handle it. That could be the work of a lifetime too. I think I'm still on that path myself.

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Communicating by your presence is a, it's a very challenging thing, but it is, you know, being able to regulate your own anxiety. Do you have questions or approaches that you might suggest to people when they're trying to find out where somebody really stands?

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Well, with a group, what I really like to do is invite people to, to write for themselves before they speak in the group.

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Say more about that. Let's say we're in a meeting. How do you do that?

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Yeah, yeah. I think, well, when I'm speaking, sometimes I'll just use 3x5 cards and have a question. And this, so this is just a learning technique. Here's the question and take a minute or two and write what you think. I think you can do it about a question on the table as well. And then you can give people a chance to share. They don't have to, but they can. And it, It makes everybody slow down instead of just react. And it can give the introverts an opportunity to think and the extroverts an opportunity to self-regulate. And whether they speak it aloud or not, they're in a different place than if everybody just jumped in on the question.

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Wow. That's, so I think that's gold. That's not something I've heard before. And if people haven't heard that before, that's a huge takeaway. So just to kind of make sure I understand, you're in a meeting, maybe you're gonna deal with a challenging topic. And so to facilitate discussion, you'll say, you'll ask a question. So what are the challenges with this? And don't answer. I want you to write down just take a couple minutes and write it down. And then you invite people to share if they want to. Is that kind of the process?

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Yeah, that's the process. And the process, I learned the process in teaching from Dave Ellis, who was a master teacher that I studied under. And so I wanna give him credit for the 3x5 genius technique.

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In Generation to Generation, one of the, case studies is Separated but Not Divorced, I think it, and it's about a, a guy who is trying to separate emotionally from his, he and his wife are divorced, but they're fighting over the kids. And in fact, the, the first part, the minister says, who presumably is Friedman, says, I don't think you can hack it, which is what you were, you were saying before about challenge. But then he's, he's coached to write down what she says when she's making accusations. And it's not to go to court, although it could be used, but it's to regulate himself. It's to help manage his own anxiety. And I think that's a— the way you've described it here, that would do that beautifully for a lot of people, I think, who might just want to jump in and argue or complain or do whatever they do when they're upset and anxious.

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I forgot about that case. And that's something you could do yourself in a meeting is just take some notes about what people are saying to help regulate yourself.

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This work is so hard sometimes that just having little things like that can make a huge difference.

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They're techniques, but they— you could find something that works for you. And I also, I'm a huge fan of writing by hand. I understand that handwriting is— it's a very complex brain activity.

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We will stop there. So that's it for episode 388. We will continue this interview in episode 389. Remember, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com and get more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com. And if you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who would benefit, and please leave a review on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks in advance for your help. Until next time, go be yourself.