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Welcome to Episode 324 of The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast. I'm Jack Shitama. If you are new to this podcast, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com with your questions, comments, and ideas for future episodes, and you can get more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com. You can find out about my coaching, speaking engagements, and books that I've written as well as subscribe to my Two for Tuesday email newsletter. I'll also put a link to the subscription page in the show notes. Finally, you can become a patron for as little as $5 a month. It will get you access to an exclusive online community, a place where I will answer your questions within 24 hours, as well as a live event such as a Q&A or case study once each month that is only available to patrons. For $9 a month, you can become a VIP patron and get all of these things plus 20% off on just about everything I offer, including positive intelligence. I'll put a link to find out more in the show notes. Now, without further ado, here is episode 324, Defiance as Self Differentiation, and 3 Steps to Do It Well. Dr Sunita Sah is a Cornell psychologist and the author of the recent book, Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes.

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When I ran across her work, I immediately recognized her definition of defiance as self-differentiation. A defining moment for Saw happened as a child. She witnessed her mother, who was normally a selfless person, who was, as Saw says, the embodiment of compliance, stand up for herself in a moment of defiance. The moment stayed with Saw to the point that as an adult, she began researching the dynamics of compliance and defiance. In family systems terms, you might think of these two terms as adaptivity and reactivity, respectively. That is, giving in without standing up for yourself or getting defensive or aggressive when you disagree. I would definitely equate compliance with adaptivity. However, defiance, as Sa defines it, is definitely not reactivity. It's self-differentiation. Sa says that defiance is a skill rather than a personality trait. She says, Defiance isn't about personality. It's a skill, a deliberate and thoughtful choice. When we make that choice, we don't just change ourselves, we inspire those who witness it. As she defines it, defiance is not inherently oppositional. It's acting in alignment with our core values. This is the self-definition component of self-differentiation. It's why it's so important to know what matters to you, to know your goals and values.

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It's especially true when you're going into situations that you know will be anxious and potentially confrontational. Getting clear on what matters to you and your desired outcome will help you remain a non-anxious presence, even as you self-define. Saul emphasizes that defiance is not rebellion or chaos. It's a force for alignment with core values, even when there is pressure to comply with group norms. Self-differentiation is the ability to express your goals and values in a non-anxious way in the midst of surrounding togetherness pressure. Defiance, as defined by Sah, is self-differentiation. She uses the term insinuation anxiety to unpack the psychology of compliance, that is, adaptivity. She He says, "This psychological phenomenon, which I call insinuation anxiety, is a distinct type of anxiety that arises when people worry that their non-compliance with another person's wishes or advice may be interpreted as a signal of distrust, insinuating that person is not who they appear to be or should be. None of us want to imply that our friends, family, coworkers, or bosses could be biased, unethical, or incompetent. This dynamic is particularly strong in hierarchical or high-stakes group settings where the pressure to comply can be overwhelming". As you might notice, this is the essence of surrounding togetherness pressure.

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The higher the pressure to comply, the more we fear that our non-compliance, our defiance, our self-differentiation will provoke reactivity in others, especially if they experience our actions as criticism. We have an innate need for belonging and connection. This is the emotional connection component of self-differentiation. The challenge comes when we feel that self-definition will threaten belonging and connection. One thing that's helpful is to remember that self-differentiation has the potential to improve the relationship system over time. There may be initial upset, but leading as a non-anxious presence can facilitate lasting change. As Saul says, Ultimately, the process deepened my belief in the power of small, deliberate acts of defiance. They may seem insignificant in the moment, but collectively, they shape the culture of our workplaces, communities, and societies. While I prefer the term self-differentiation to defiance, I believe Sah is getting at the same thing. When you act in alignment with your goals and values, even in the midst of surrounding togetherness pressure, and you stay emotionally connected to others in the system, you create healthy emotional space for others to do the same. Sunita Sah suggests three steps toward what she calls skillful defiance. The first step is to tap into your tension.

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This involves recognizing your discomfort as an internal compass that is pointing toward the importance of the situation. You can then use this tension, this discomfort, as a cue for Reflection. The second step is to pause and reflect. This creates the space for you to be intentional about how you want to respond to this situation. Sa offers three questions to aid in this reflection. One, does this align with my values? Two, what are the risks of saying yes? Three, what might I gain by saying no? Notice how this is getting clear on what matters to you, as well as weighing the cost of compliance or adaptivity versus the benefit of defiance or self-differentiation. What's implied here is that in some cases, you might decide to comply. These may be situations where your goals and values are not as critical and/or that you value the relationship so much that you decide that emotional connection is more important than self-definition. On the other hand, you may decide that the benefits of self-definition are such that it is worth saying no. That is, it is worth defying the pressure to conform. When I was a pastor with kids in school, it was clear to me that I needed to be at my kids' Little League games and school events.

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Even though I felt pressure to miss them to attend church meetings, I felt that the risk of saying yes to that pressure was not being there for my kids. And of course, the benefit of saying no was that I would be there for them. This leads to the third step, which is to redefine defiance as alignment. Remind yourself that it's not about being difficult or oppositional. It's about living with integrity. Self differentiation is exercising integrity in the moment of choice. It's sticking with your goals and values in the midst of surrounding togetherness pressure and doing it as a non-anxious presence. Saul notes that each act of values-based defiance strengthens your ability to make courageous decisions when it matters most. Or the way I would put it is it makes it a little bit easier to self-differentiate. You can develop the skill of defiance not as an act of rebellion, but as a deliberate, values-driven way to navigate the complexities of group dynamics and social influence. One thing I think is important to emphasize is that you can exercise integrity while remaining emotionally connected. I believe this is implied when sa says that defiance is not about being difficult or oppositional.

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I would explicitly say showing care and concern fosters emotional connection, which makes it more likely that others will accept your position. I don't recall exactly what I said as a pastor, but it was likely something like, I know this meeting is important to our church. I do care about this work that we're doing. However, it's important to me to be there for my children, I'm not going to attend the meeting. To me, this is what skillful defiance and self-differentiation is, and I don't recall ever getting any flag for it. It was more about being able to take a stand and define my own goals and values and go with them. That's the essence of self-defining in opposition to the surrounding togetherness pressure while staying connected. To me, Sa's most important point is that when you start to do this on a regular basis, things change. What I've noticed is not only will people give you more space to self-differentiate, but others will start to differentiate as well. This is the power of a non-anxious presence. That's it for episode 324. Don't forget, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com, and you can get more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com. If you have found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit and please leave a review on your podcast platform of choice. Thank you for your help. Until next time. Go be yourself.