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Welcome to Episode 217 of The Non-Anxious Leader podcast. I'm Jack Shitama, and today's episode is the third and final part of my discussion with Reverend Loren Richmond Jr. of the Future Christian Podcast. In today's discussion, he asks me about what I think will and should happen in the future of the United Methodist Church and in the future of the Church. He asks me a series of questions that he asks all of his guests. My favorite of these is what I would do if I were Pope for a day. Without further ado, here is Episode 217, What's going on in the United Methodist Church, Part 3.

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Well, I want to ask you a bunch more family systems questions here, but I got to keep focused and get back on track to the UNC discussion here. Let me ask you maybe two more questions here before we take a break. What do you think will happen and maybe what do you think should happen?

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Well, you know that the should would be that when we meet in 2024, we formalize some action or amical separation. But by then it might be too late. What I say, which should happen right now is people should give each other a break. They should understand that we don't agree and that people of Christian conscience can disagree and that we all just need to relax a little bit. I think what should happen is we should allow people to choose what they want to do and send them with our blessing or leave them behind with our blessing. If we could do that, I think I would be grateful that that happened. What will happen? I think it's more likely to devolve into what's happened in other denominations. We're going to see lawsuits, we're going to see hurt feelings, we're going to see broken relationships. The only thing I hold to is that God doesn't need us. In fact, if we destroy ourselves and each other in the process, God will find another way to bring the reign of God to Earth as it is in heaven. I don't want to say I'm cynical. I think I'm just being realistic that it's hard for me to picture how it doesn't get really nasty.

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Yeah. Well, let's take a break and come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Jack Shatama. And Jack, I usually ask certain closing questions here, but I'm going to tweak it a little bit for you. Rather than asking if you're a Pope for a day, how about if you were... I guess this is again, this is not an actual position. If you're a Pope of the United Methodist Church, maybe, what would that day look like?

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Well, I would probably try to see the problem. If I had ultimate authority and could just do what I wanted in the United... I would probably try to institute that amicable separation. Not everybody would be happy with that, but I think it would allow for a lot smoother transition into the future. I do want to go back to if I were Pope for a day, though, too, because I would steamroll the whole thing. I would allow priests to marry. I would allow women to be ordained, and I would remove all the bans on LGBTQ persons. If I were Pope for... I think St. Francis, I mean, St. Francis, Pope Francis, he might do the same, but I think he's a little more savvy of a leader or slash politician. But if I had that chance, I'd do it.

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That reminds me, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you is how you saw leadership for good or bad, happening through this whole process? I see the.

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Healthy leaders as modeling this. So, for example, our bishop is Bishop Latrell Easterling, and she's over the Baltimore, Washington and Peninsula Delaware conferences, which is very Mexican, Maryland, DC, and the state of Delaware, a little part of West Virginia, too. She was asked recently by a group of people in public how she felt about two of her bishop colleagues leaving the denomination to go to the global Methodist Church. One of them she was actually very close to. She's got to miss conversations with him, and she sends him with her blessing. I just think that it can be modeled. It can be modeled. Leaders who model this type of self-differentiation, this type of non anxious presence, can be really helpful to the rest of us who are really anxious.

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That's good to hear. That's helpful to hear. A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life?

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I think it'd be interesting to see St. Francis. I also thought about John Wesley, but John Wesley, man, he was intense. Charles Wesley, maybe. These are the founders of Methodism. Charles Wesley, I'd be interested just because he wrote all those songs to, presumably, bar tunes to local music. Anyway, I think those are a few that I have thought of.

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What do you think history will remember from our current time and in place?

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I think, first of all, the pandemic. It's going to be hard for that to not be one of the defining moments. I think that we are getting close to the zenith, maybe the next 10 years, this division and conflict. If you do generational studies, one of the things I say about baby boomers, of which I'm a part of that generation, is they're idealists and idealists don't compromise very well. As my kids who are millennials tell me that baby boomers ruined everything. I think as baby boomers age out of life in general and power, I think the Gen X and the millennial generation, especially, are going to find a way to take us in a new direction and a healthier direction. I'm not blaming the baby boomers. I'm just saying I think all of these things have come together. I believe in 10 years, say the early 20 30s. I think our political divisions will be not so intense and we'll find a different way to live in our world. I think that's mainly due to young people. I'm hopeful for our young people.

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I'll give you two ways to answer this if you want. I want to ask, what are your hopes for the future of the United Methodist Church? But if you'd like to also answer more broadly for Christianity, you're welcome to. But how would you answer that?

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As I mentioned, what's happened with Christianity is it became complacent and comfortable and inward looking. M y hope is that Christianity will become outward facing again. I heard somebody say a long time ago, Christianity is one of the few organizations designed for the benefit of its non members. Some people think of that in terms of proselytizing and making conversions. I think of it in terms of meeting the world where they are with God's love and grace. I hope that we see churches start to focus less on going back to where we were, less on numbers and buts and pews, and more on connecting with their communities and living out what they believe God's call is to serve them. Even if Christianity is much smaller because of that, I think it will be more powerful. My study of Christian history, which is one of the subjects I loved, shows that it was always most faithful and vibrant when it was outside the majority, when it was outside the rings of power. I don't think it's a bad thing that we may be in decline and Christianity as we know it disappears because I don't think that Christianity as we know it was as faithful as we should have been.

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Sure. Well, you have quite a... As I alluded to, you have a lot going on yourself that you work on. What are some of your projects that people can find and connect with you online?

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If they're interested in family systems theory, if they're interested in how to be a non anxious presence, I think the podcast is the one it seems that people find most helpful. I think that's a place to start. I think I'm a bit of an eclectic person, but I feel like I like to bring together these concepts of family systems theory, self care, productivity, and try to bring them all together because these are the things that help me to function as a non anxious presence. I do have an email newsletter that goes out every Tuesday. It's called Two for Tuesday. I usually have a brief devotional thing in there or something that I'm writing on and then two recommendations. I very seldom sell stuff in there. So if you're worried about me about getting sales emails all the time, you can try it out. You'll find out that it's really... I just put it out there to try to be helpful to people.

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And the website is what again?

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The nonanxious leader. Com. No punctuation, just the nonanxious leader. Com.

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Yeah, awesome. Well, Jack, really appreciate your time. Thanks for s for squeezing our conversation in today amongst your busy day and really appreciate your perspectives. Always leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you.

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Thank you, Loren, and thanks for the work you're doing. That's it for Episode 217 and my discussion with Reverend Loren Richmond Jr. From the Future Christian Podcast. I will put a link to his podcast in the show notes. He has some great guests like Brian McLaren and Diana Butler Bass. I feel honored to be included in a list like that. Don't forget, you can connect with me at thenonanxiousleader.com. You can find the show notes and transcript at thenonanxiousleader.com/217. You can email me at jack@christian-leaders.com. Until next time, thanks and goodbye.