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Welcome to Episode 290 of The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast. I'm Jack Shitama. Before we get into today's episode, I want to let you know that if you would like to contact me, you can email me at jack@christian-leaders.com. I love to hear your comments, your questions, and ideas for future episodes, and you can find more resources at thenon-anxiousanxiousleader.com. You can subscribe for my Two for Tuesday email newsletter there. I will also put a link to subscribe in the show notes. Since this is part three of four, I don't think it's necessary to go into Kathleen Smith's bio. You have hopefully listened to that in parts one and two. You can also find more about her at a link in the show notes. So without further ado, here is episode 290, An Interview with Dr. Kathleen Colleen Smith, Part 3 of 4.

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So you wrote, I guess it was last week when your book came out in your sub stack. It's a tremendous privilege to get another go at writing a book about the ideas of Bowen theory and the science that has kept me curious as a therapist. This book isn't about quick fixes, but about people's long, thoughtful efforts in bringing a little more self to their relationships. What What does it mean to bring a little more self to your relationships?

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It's fascinating by how people make these small moves. We love stories with grand transformations, but I don't think growing up really happens that way. It's those small day-to-day moments of sitting on your hands and letting your kid do something and struggle a little bit while they learn. Or having your spouse walk in the door and not just dump your anxiety immediately on them or calling that cousin that you haven't talked to in a while. It's the small day-to-day stuff of pushing back against what's automatic. And so that's why I think the stories in the book, they're not particularly dramatic, but I think they're very interesting because they reflect some of these small moves or, in Bowen theory, what's called these mini steps day to day to operationalize a little bit of this good thinking that they're doing. The culture really doesn't reflect that. We want the five easy steps. We want the thing that will transform our lives because this anxiety is so high right now. I don't know if it's the best marketing technique, but I think it's honest about how people actually change and what progress looks like. The fact that it's... Insurance companies don't love the fact that it's a lifelong endeavor.

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We want eight sessions and you're better. That's what the system's.

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Yeah, right. That is the ultimate quick to fix, right? I have eight sessions and I'm cured, where, as you describe, it's more of a lifelong process. If the listeners aren't familiar in both of Kathleen's books, there are case studies. I think what I love about the case studies is, yeah, they're not all major transformations. And in some cases, they don't even turn out the way you'd want them to in a Hollywood movie. But in every case, it gives you the perspective of what's going on in terms of systems, relationship systems. I think that's really helpful. And you said that these are, they're amalgamations, right? They're not individuals, right? How did you How did you come up with those? Did you start with a theory first and say what pieces come together?

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Is that- Yeah, I start probably with a concept, and then I think of three or four people that I've worked with and what their challenges were and what they were trying to do. I combined those efforts into a story and changed the identifying details so nobody's going to read it and go, Oh, that's me. But they might go, Yeah, I worked on that with Kathleen. I was thinking about that. But the funny thing is, these are all human things. Everybody's going to say, Yeah, I got... I over function in this way, or I listen to too many podcasts about productivity. It's very human stuff. I think that... Also, when people send me messages, I'll get text from friends saying, Why did you write about me in your newsletter this week? And I say, Well, I only use myself as material.

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Yeah, right. This is I don't know why my mind went here, but in one of your newsletters, you talked about how much you love TV shows. It might have been in the introduction to your new book, I think. You opened the book with Ted Lasso, a quote from Ted Lasso, a quote from Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso. I would just love to know your take on Ted Lasso from a systems perspective. I know this isn't in the list of questions, but there are just so many systems lessons for me in that. I just would like to what you have to say.

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I actually never finished the show. I know people had mixed feelings about the final season, so I can't really speak to that. But I do think it was interesting in the sense of seeing the fingerprints of anxiety in people's lives and on the group. With Ted in particular, the family stuff, I think is really interesting because Could they have done more with it? Sure. But I think it's just interesting to see from a leadership perspective, when you relate to somebody in a way that jolts them out of what's automatic for them. I think you see some of that in the show, and that was really interesting for me to observe.

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Yeah. He always got people thinking, right? Instead of just feeling.

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Yeah.

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So in your first Everything isn't terrible. You wrote, The distance is a great short term strategy for keeping everyone calm. But when a leader values a temporary truce over solid relationships, they're only delaying conflict. They're forfeiting the mission of the group or organization. I love that last sentence. They're forfeiting the mission of the group or organization. Can you unpack what's going on there?

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I think thinking about what is the cost of distance when you don't have access to people and their thinking, whether you agree with it or not, and how that distance can often increase this allergicness that we have to each other, how much contact you need to have with somebody to learn how to, like I said earlier, play ball and manage yourself. Often it can take a lot. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of contact. And so anytime I think when a leader has access to people, has access to what they think the challenges are that the group faces, then they have to do less mind reading, less guessing, less assuming. We're really great at assuming people are upset with us or think a certain way when maybe they don't. And so that gives you and the system a little bit higher chance of operating based on the reality and what the challenges really are. And that's tremendously helpful. And I help people think about this in their own families. When are you making assumptions about what people want for their future as they age? Are you making assumptions about what help they want from you without asking them?

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Are you making assumptions about they're going to be upset about something if you ask about it? Just really not operating in the reality, just in the anxiety. We do more of that, the more distant we are from each other, the less contact we have with each other. Often, we get so wrapped up around engineering particular outcomes when I think just the contact itself may make such a huge difference. I think that's something that's very tangible that leaders can plug away with to ask themselves, who are the key people in the system? Note that that's different than the people I like the most that I need to have contact with. That's really interesting, I think, when people can take that on.

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How much of that contact needs to be work-related? How much of it... I mean, how personal should it be? What would you consider good guidelines? If I need to be having contact with somebody, and maybe especially somebody who makes me anxious, is small talk good enough? Do I have to get vulnerable? What's going on there?

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Yeah, I think it's very easy to therapies everything and make it, and this is not the type of therapy I do, but to focus on how do people feel about things? What is it? Let's just soak in the feelings. I'm less interested in that. I think what I'm Bowen theory is called person-to-person contact. So anytime you can relate to somebody about yourself and about themselves, you're not focusing on other people, you're not focusing so much on the superficial. That doesn't mean you need to know everything about a person. But having, like I said earlier, a general sense of what are they interested in, what do they see as the challenges that the group faces, what do they want their part to be in that? Also, information that they have about the functioning of the group. That goes back to that family stuff. Let's say in an organization, is there somebody who's been around for a long time who just has those facts? And that's really useful, right? How much that's a really effective effort in having that type of contact. Can you say what you think without adjusting it too much based on the reaction Are you giving the other person space to do that as well?

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That's great practice.

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And how do you prepare somebody? Let's say they know you're coaching them or they're a client, they're a client. They know that if they don't adjust what they say, they don't adjust themselves, they're going to get a lot of anxiety, a lot of pushback. How do you prepare them for that?

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I think what It's sometimes called the anxiety of progress, seeing that as a sign that maybe you did a thing. Sometimes I'll have that feeling coming out of a meeting where I said something I was thinking, Kathleen, why did you just not keep your mouth shut? Why did But often it's like, well, do I stand by what I said? Is that what I actually think? Was it respectful? If yes, then that's the anxiety in progress, not doing what you would normally do. But also think about separating the content and what is called the emotional process. Often we focus on the content of what we're going to say. But I think if you're focusing on the emotional piece of, did I try and manage what the other person did with that. If you are not, often they have a level of freedom that can make them less reactive to what you say because you're not putting the pressure in their direction. That doesn't mean it always works so that people are always going to be happy or agree with you. But I do think focusing on managing yourself versus managing them does lower the temperature. I think it can help reduce the conflict in that way.

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Because they can see you're not trying to manage them. You're just letting them know what you think and what they can expect from you. Maybe that's useful.

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I love that term, the anxiety of progress. May I borrow that?

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Yeah, that's from a book by Dr. Cur and Dr. Bowen. I did not come up with that.

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We are going to stop there. I will be back next week with a final segment of this interview. Remember, if you want to connect with me, you can email me at jack@christian-leaders.com. You can find more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com. If you have found this helpful, please share it with someone else who might benefit. I would really appreciate it. Until next time. Thanks and goodbye.