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Welcome to episode 389 of The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast. I'm Jack Shitama. We are continuing my interview with Margaret Markison. If you haven't listened to parts 1 and 2, please go do that first. She is a longtime family systems practitioner and an author who who also helps clergy and ministry leaders lead as a non-anxious presence. She has a new book coming out in July titled Sustainable Ministry: How to Lead and When to Nap. And if you're new to this podcast, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com with your questions, comments, and suggestions for future episodes. And you can get more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com, where you can find out about my coaching practice, books that I've written, speaking engagements, and courses that I offer. You can also subscribe to my Two for Tuesday email newsletter and get your free AI family systems coach at the website or at the links in the show notes. And finally, if you would like to support my work for as little as $5 a month, you can get more information and sign up at the link in the show notes. Thanks in advance for your consideration. And now, without further ado, here is episode 389, an interview with Margaret Markison, part 3 of 4.

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And I also, I'm a huge fan of writing by hand. I understand that handwriting is, it's a very complex brain activity.

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So what, what do you write by hand? How does it help you and what, like in your daily life, what do you do?

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Yeah, I write a little bit every, every morning by hand about what I'm, what I'm grateful for, how, how I think I lived out my values today, how I want to, the day before, how I want to live them out today. And if I get stuck, I'll start writing. This teacher, Dave Ellis, he said, if you have a problem, ask yourself, what are 20 ways to solve this problem? And just make a list of 20 by hand and pick the best ones.

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Wow, great stuff, great stuff. Where did you, who is Dave? I don't know Dave Ellis.

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Oh, so Dave Ellis is, he created a, he wrote a book called Falling Awake: Creating the Life of Your Dreams. And he taught these workshops, Falling Awake workshops for many years and coached all kinds of leaders. And I actually learned about him through my spiritual director who was a student of his and had been in his coaching training program.

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Falling Awake.

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Yeah, Falling Awake. I know, it's a great, isn't it a great title? His work is a lot, it's different from Bowen theory. I think he's more, there was more kind of emotion drive involved in the way he's thinking, talks and thinks about things. But a lot of it is, working out for yourself what you want and how, what are the many ways you might get it.

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Right. And, and that, you know, that, that connects with Bowen theory or family systems theory in that, you know, really getting clear on—

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Yes, exactly.

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What's important to you on your goals and values. And yeah, that's, that's great stuff. I think most people understand, I think most of the listeners to this podcast understand that the family systems theory is just a piece of so many different other things, right? But it, it's a big piece. Helping us to understand how people— relationship systems work and how we can make progress as leaders, which is whether it's a family or a congregation or an organization. You also say in your book that both leadership and administration are important, but they're not the same. Can you explain that?

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Leadership is figuring out where you want to go and what you want to do. Administration is seeing that the things to make that possible get done.

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So you need both.

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You need both. And most clergy and other leaders are better at one than the other. They're both important. You can have the greatest vision, but if you can't organize your way out of a paper bag, it's never gonna come to fruition. And you could be the most organized person on the planet, but if you don't know what you're organizing for, then it's not gonna mean much. Right.

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I guess that raises the question. It also goes back to the last, the other question about vision. So if somebody who is the head of an organization, whether it's a nonprofit or the pastor, you know, spiritual leader of a church or congregation, if they're a good administrator, but they're not a good leader, what can you suggest to them? How can they become a good leader?

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I think that beginning to step up your thinking a little bit and ask yourself, like, what do I want? What do I want now? What do I want in the next year? I think it's hard to think a long-term vision now because it's such a volatile environment. And you could even start with as little as 90 days. What is my purpose for this 90 days? What is my purpose for this year in this role? And just begin to think about purpose. And then you step it down a little bit. If I wanna live out this purpose, what might I do next to make that happen?

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And if you're a good administrator, that's the easier part, right? I mean, it's the harder part is to kind of get the balcony level.

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Yeah, that's right. And begin to think purpose is one way to think about it, or call, what's my call if you're in ministry for this time?

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I love that you say, you know, longer-term plans are harder 'cause I pretty much have given up working with churches in terms of longer-term plans. It's a year or less.

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A year or less, that's right. And it's really plenty. Dan Hotchkiss had a great article about a 1-year ministry plan. If you do a 1-year ministry plan every year, year after year, and evaluate, assess, and then make another plan, you're gonna make progress.

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And at the end of that year, things will have changed enough that you're gonna have to adjust.

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Even if you have a 5-year strategic plan.

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Right, right.

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Right.

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But haven't, not, they haven't changed enough that you haven't made some kind of progress towards something, right?

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Right.

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That's, yeah, that's why a year is a really good timeframe. So part of the subtitle of the book is, and maybe take a nap, which in the book you talk about what's your work to do and what's not your work to do. So how does one decide what's not their work to do? Work to do?

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That is a process of discernment. It's discernment, prayerful discernment. It's a spiritual process. In some cases, it's a conversation with others. And in other cases, you just think, I'm not going to do that anymore. We take on many tasks, projects, and you may just say, not, I'm not going to do it, or I'm not going to do it now. I'll do that later.

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And if it's something that you've taken on that people have gotten used to or gotten expected, they expect you to do, maybe even feel entitled 'cause you do that, how do you go about changing that, how you function?

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Yes. Well, increasing your tolerance for the disapproval of others is good for most helping type leaders. People do not thank you, initially at least, for stepping down your over-functioning. They may over time. Of course, it takes you— it takes some nerve.

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Right.

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And you have to remember, just because you feel guilty does not mean you did the wrong thing.

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Right. By saying you're not gonna do it anymore.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So when you talk about over-functioning and under-functioning in the book, you say, that this is something that you want to be able to recognize and try to course correct or whatever. It sounds to me like you're implying that most pastors over-function.

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They over-function generally. Most generally, there are over-function— under-function— chronically under-functioning clergy, and every judicatory leader knows who those folks are.

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Right.

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But they're not considered good clergy, right?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes they can get their people to do all the work for them. But most of the people I work with are chronic overfunctioners. However, they may underfunction in certain areas. So some clergy underfunction in the administrative areas, staff supervision, and money. Not always. Some clergy over-function around money, but a lot under-function in the area of money, stewardship, and financial management.

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And how does that impact leadership when clergy over-function?

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It cripples people.

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Say more about that.

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Well, so when you over-function, it's a reciprocal process. You, or someone over-functions always in relation to someone else or a group. Who under-function. So those people who are under-functioning never get the opportunity to step into responsibility because there's no room. And it's not just clergy who over-function, it's key lay leaders who also over-function, and then one of them drops dead and nobody knows how to do whatever.

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And when they're over-functioning, they're keeping other people out.

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They are.

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Ah, yes.

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Yes, they are. Well, and I'll be honest, over-functioning makes the world go round. It's never gonna go away.

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Right.

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And for people to learn over time to modify their over-functioning, to give others room to step up or not, as the case may be, it's— there's that gap. That's the hard part. And to create some systems that allow, make room for others to step in. Easier said than done.

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Easier said than done, yes. And it's making me think that it means you have to be really clear on what's your work to do and what's not your work to do. That this is what I will do, but I'm not equipped, I'm not prepared, I'm not willing, whatever, to do this. Who's going to do it, right?

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Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And when I was doing these 90-day planning sessions with clergy, which I did for a number of years, I would always ask them, what are you not gonna do for these 90 days? So maybe you just take a break and tell people, so I'm not gonna do X for this quarter. I've got this other thing. I've gotta work on the capital campaign, whatever it is. And, you know, practice.

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So that's an intentional pause.

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Yeah, like an experiment.

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I've been working with churches using design thinking where they develop just an experiment to try out a ministry idea. And what I've found is there's less resistance from the "old guard" because it's so small and it's just an experiment and it's not permanent. And it seems like this 90-day is also like that. People aren't gonna necessarily get up in arms because you're not saying it's forever. You're just saying it's for a very specific time.

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Yeah. And I think it helps the person who's doing it also to take it on as an experiment.

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Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

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Be a little lighter about it.

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So this is not forever.

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Not forever. Nothing's forever.

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If you're a chronic overfunctioner and you don't know if you can live without overfunctioning, I guess telling yourself it's not forever is helpful.

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Yes. Here's how I think about myself. I'm a recovering overfunctioner with frequent relapses.

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That's funny.

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Yeah. I still remind my husband of things. I just did it this week.

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Well, and I guess in families, in families of origin, it seems like it's harder to do some of these things. What have you found helpful for people?

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Yes, it is harder. We learn how to relate to people in the families we grow up in. So to go back and be different, even a little bit, is extraordinarily difficult. But you can experiment there too. I wonder what would happen if I called my mother every week or didn't call her every week. Right.

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Depending on what the pattern is.

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Depending, yes, depending on what the pattern is.

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Right. So calling your mother every week would be if you tend to avoid her.

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Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. And call her, you don't have to talk to her as long as she wants to talk to you. Call her every week and talk for 15 minutes and then say, "Gotta go, Mom." That'd be one example of a kind of experiment.

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And then at the other end is if you talk often and—

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Often. If you talk every day, maybe once a week. Yeah, right. Every family's different. There's such variation in the levels of closeness and distance, and to be curious about that and see if you— where do you typically stand and could you stand in a little bit different place?

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned before, I like to think of it as holding the tension between different things. And so, you know, the self-definition and togetherness, right? There's— and trying to figure out how to hold the middle there is, is, that's the whole ball game, right?

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Yeah. And it's, it's really having choices to be less compulsive and how we relate to others, whether in the family or, or at church. So I can, I can be responsible or I can let it go. I can listen or I can talk. I can be calm or I can get a little worked up. But I'm regulated about it. Mm-hmm.

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Right. And you're doing it— when you say having choices, you're doing it on purpose. You're making the choice—

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Yes, you're making a choice.

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—to respond this way.

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Yeah, that's right. So you're not just reacting.

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Right.

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You are making choices in the service of your own growth and what you hope will be more productive relationships with other people, including family.

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We are going to end part 3 there. So that's it for episode 389. Part 4 of 4 will be next week. Remember, you can connect with me at jack@christian-leaders.com, and you can find more resources at thenonanxiousleader.com. And if you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who would benefit, and please leave a review on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks in advance for your help.

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Until next time, go be yourself.